Martin 6/4 tuning bits

[bloke]

I guess I understand the Martin company's original idea of building their tubas requiring tuning bits, so that a player could find an optimum playing position, and apparently they are also cylindrical inside - instead of featuring a venturi (ie. reverse taper) as do most other tuning bits, but I wonder why cylindrical is any better than a venturi, as nearly 100% of all brass instrument mouthpipes (other than sousaphones and Martin 6/4 tubas with bits) are tapered all the way down to the mouthpiece receiver?

Something else that occurs to me is that - rather than hand replicating a pair of Martin tuning bits to every detail (okay, which appeals to the collector mentality of an instrument owner) - why not take a cylindrical piece of tubing of the same bore size, mount a receiver on it, mount and insertion piece on it (which is thicker brass obviously) and install an reinforcement brace on it - sort of like a miniaturized version of a gooseneck for sousaphone? This defines a lot less labor and eliminates extra seams at the junctures of the tuning bits.

I understand that Martin owners and players are sort of a cult (not meaning to insult, but just sort of describing how they believe particular things and will not waiver from believing them), and I guess I get the original designers' idea of the playing position thing, but I sort of question the multiple inches of cylindrical tubing at the capillary end of the mouthpipe tube being a good (or even important) feature.

Going back to the simpler one-piece thing I described above, I'd be tempted to make one that tapered down a bit, rather than being cylindrical. I understand not wanting to replace the original mouthpipe on these, even though I view them as wonky, because I respect the concept of o.e.m. (particularly to those who view their instruments as parts of their collections, rather than simply pieces of equipment used to make music).

THIS CRAPPY PICTURE IS DRAWN TOO LONG - COMPARED TO WHAT THE ACTUAL LENGTH OF THIS
(WHICH WOULD REPLACE TWO MARTIN TUNING BITS) WOULD BE, BUT HOPEFULLY DEMONSTRATES THE GENERAL IDEA.

CRAPPY PIC - NEITHER DRAWN TO SCALES NOR TO THE ACCURATE LENGTH.png (7.04 KiB) Viewed 4007 times

and yeah (though the Martin company apparently didn't), I'd probably use a tapered tube...at least minimally tapered - such as minimally 1/4mm or 1/2mm.

[MiBrassFS]

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[bloke]

Obviously the tilt of the instrument is affected by the forward extension of an any particular player's belly (which defines the tuning bits as "handy", in some cases in particular).

picture:
If written-out music, I'd LOVE to be doubling a bass saxophone (vs. another tuba).

random comment:
I haven't enjoyed playing every single one of those 6/4 Martin B-flat tubas.
One in particular (that made me smile when playing it) was an old funky-looking 3-valve top-action.

[MiBrassFS]

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[bloke]

Tuba is in an old school metal cradle stand. Player switches between bass sax and tuba. Has no appreciable belly.

Thanks for the explanation.
The face (not puffy) didn't seem to coordinate with the (implied) belly size.

[edfirth]

That's Vince Giordano. His band, the Nighthawks, played the live (not the original 20's recordings) tunes on Bopardwalk Empire and well as Cotton Club.

[Mary Ann]

With the Mammoth that is still in the shop and which I am starting to wonder if I will ever get it back, I got three tuning bits, but they were in a box with some other stuff. Now I know what they are for, and thank you. Yes they are cylindrical.

[bloke]

Okay, so the mouthpiece bit is a smaller cylinder than is the mouthpipe bit, then?

(I've owned some of those bits, but gave them away to people who really needed them without really perusing them very closely.)

I've heard of Mr Giordano, but never had the pleasure and honor of meeting him. I hold people who can play tuba and bass saxophone in awe.
I believe both of the most well known bass saxophone players who worked with Bix Beiderbecke were triple threats, in other words upright bass, tuba, and bass saxophone. I believe Mr Rollini was additionally a fine pianist and keyboard percussion player.
York-boy (here on tubaforum) is a busy New York area fine fine tuba player and bass saxophonist. I used to play a lot of bass, and I'm barely getting back into it. I'm restoring an old American bass saxophone similar to the one pictured (Buescher/Conn), but it's not finished. I can play some tunes and a few scales on the saxophone and get a good sound, but I'm not ready to play nice-sounding bass lines on jobs with one... My next Dixie job is late August and then another one in early September... I seriously doubt that this bass saxophone restoration will be finished by then, but - if it's miraculously finished a couple of weeks before then - I'd be willing to spend some fairly serious time playing along with some YouTube tubes and striving to be able to use it on at least a couple of songs. If it's finished in time for the September job, that's only a trio gig but one of the three of us is an incredibly talented woodwind/brass/bass/percussion player, and I might just take it and have him play a few songs on it with me moving over to trombone. If I get it restored in time and hand it off to my friend at that job...thinking across the entire list of known Memphis jazz musicians and their equipment, this could well be the first time a bass saxophone will have been played in Memphis, Tennessee in several decades. (A high school close to where my brick and mortar music store used to be in Memphis owned one, but I have to believe that that one was stolen from the school decades ago, and never really used to play jazz - if it was even used at all by that school's band program.)

... Okay, that was a typical stream of consciousness post, wasn't it?

[MiBrassFS]

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[bloke]

A very long time, dear friend of mine is a member of the Nighthawks. Vince is a lot of fun to hear.

Okay, so the mouthpiece bit is a smaller cylinder than is the mouthpipe bit, then?

I’m no expert, but I believe so. The ones sitting here reflect this. However…

There’s so few originals and so many people have had to make and adapt things, I’m not 100% sure on the original intent. So…

I'm starting to see that the two tuning bits can serve to both elevate and to control the mouthpiece angle, so maybe my idea is kind of crummy.

[edfirth]

If some of you guys are interested Vince's band is all over youtube and he also plays bass fiddle and sings and FRONTS(from the back of the band). And he plays a metal bass fiddle'

[York-aholic]

Perhaps, being that most Martin tubas are detachable bells, the leadpipes are lower than optimal, so the two Ning (<-- typo) bits help get the mouthpiece up to the face.

I dunno but they work fine on my fixed upright belled Martin.

[bloke]

Perhaps, being that most Martin tubas are detachable bells, the leadpipes are lower than optimal, so the two Ning bits help get the mouthpiece up to the face.

I dunno but they work fine on my fixed upright belled Martin.

Yes, those things are occurring to me as well the more I think about it, and it does need to have two bends in it - thus two pieces... and our friend reports that there are two bore sizes to them.

[York-aholic]

Their earlier Mammoths had wider (23”) fixed upright bells and no tuning bits.

You’ll have to click to page 18 in this catalog:

https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/63

[MiBrassFS]

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[MartinMan]

I think the argument to be made for the two-bit setup as opposed to a single piece would be having two axes of movement both up and down and side to side, in order to adjust the position of the leadpipe more precisely as opposed to the more limited range of motion of a single tube.

I have two Martin sousaphones, one with a set of bits identical to the lap tubas, and an earlier example that has a single-piece Z-shaped bit, and I definitely prefer the two-bit option for the adjustability of it all.

As my user name would suggest, I might be the most cult-like of all the Martin obsessed people, having owed eight different Martins over the years in just the tubas alone (Currently I've paired it down to just two tubas and two sousas) And I've gone though a lot of trouble to ensure the ones I ended up with all now have the original bits with them.

Fully admitting that it may well be the placebo effect, but I really do feel like there's a difference when the actual tapered bits are in place. I've had horns in the past set up with Conn bits which were not ideal, Selmer/Bundy bits which are slightly better and definitely are closer to looking the part at a glance, but the current Mammoth tuba and sousaphone I own (both late 30s examples with the original bits) are the best playing examples of each I've played and that's why I have no plans to ever let either of them go.

I'm honestly bummed more makers didn't attempt this on their tubas, not just for mitigating the awkwardness of handling a big 6/4 tuba with a giant recording bell, but also for smaller horns that a student might play where they may struggle to reach the leadpipe, or may need to make adjustments as they grow. I guess it was probably just too tedious and expensive to manufacture for it to be justified, and I guess that explains why Martins were never the most affordable option when it compared to Conns, etc.

[MiBrassFS]

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[bloke]

The “Medium” single bit was a single open angle, maybe around 120°or so, but I’m familiar with the Z shaped one. I think the thought behind the Z shape was that some height could be adjusted/added/subtracted by rotating the bit.

... so I guess I'm learning some more stuff. I never saw an individual Z bit, but I've seen of the others put together in the shape of a Z.

[York-aholic]

Might this be one of these Z bits? The OD of the male tenon is only 0.6025” which seems to be too small.

If not, anyone have a guess what it is/was for? Perhaps an old peashooter contrabass G bugle?

IMG_2146.jpeg (55.77 KiB) Viewed 3795 times

[bloke]

Might this be one of these Z bits? The OD of the male tenon is only 0.6025” which seems to be too small.

If not, anyone have a guess what it is/was for? Perhaps an old peashooter contrabass G bugle?

IMG_2146.jpeg

I'm getting old.
Not only have I seen those before, I've had one or two of those here.